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Ideas for a new CC format, wanted!

#21 User is offline   terry1966 

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Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:30 AM

really don't see a need for the 1 mil ppd limit.

just create 2 teams evgs and 1 or 2 of the smallest teams to equal ppd production going on the stats of previous month with the teams on the other side. ok there may be a small difference but nothing i'm sure either team can make a big deal out of.

then let her rip.

both/all teams have equal opportunities to recruit "ringers" to their side so it's about as fair as something like this is ever going to be.

there's no need for formula's or handy capping in any way to try and make it "fair" because both teams started out equal in the first place, and the winner is going to be the team that can increase it's ppd the most over the race plain and simple.

if your team wins then all well and good, if it doesn't then take it like a man and don't start saying such and such cheated or it wasn't fair, but next year try and recruit better/more "ringers" for your side. :hysterical:/>/>

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#22 User is offline   Adak 

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Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:21 AM

Thanks for all the input - terry, Equinox, dostov, and everyone else.


These are my proposals for the Spring 2014 folding race. They are subject to change.

1) A name change. The race is moving in a whole new direction, and needs a name that reflects that. "Folding", or "F.A.H", should be a part of that name.

The race today is not between two small sub-teams that both had the name "monkeys" (Spider Monkeys and Folding Monkeys), in their name. That was true years ago, but not now.

I'm looking for race name suggestions, if you think of one, please post it!

2) Team vs team format has a problem with teams trusting each other, to try and set up a fair race. Lots of issues become unsolvable without trust and cooperation, between the teams.

The new format will use a few meta teams, racing each other. It might look like this, with Team A, vs. Team B, versus Team C: (team names would be chosen by those in the team, of course). This is hypothetical, of course.


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3) Teams that have less than the folding production of the largest meta team, will be given a handicap to make them equal, as shown above.

4) Racing teammates would need to be folding for their team (no change of folding handles required), 1 month before the start of the race. Late comers after the 1 month cut off date, may join the team and race, but their points won't be counted. That eliminates the possibility of outside recruiting during the race, which lots of teams don't like.

5) The Jaded Monkey as the prize for the winning teams to display, will be replaced by a new image. It's not finished, except in my mind's eye, but it's beautiful and much more appropriate for a FAH race winner.

Your feedback on the above are most welcome.
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#23 User is offline   dostov 

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 06:21 PM

Not a bad idea, Adak.

What about the handicap? If I understand correctly it's a fixed value given at the start of the race instead of a multiplier, right?
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#24 User is offline   Adak 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 12:09 AM

View Postdostov, on 19 November 2013 - 06:21 PM, said:

Not a bad idea, Adak.

What about the handicap? If I understand correctly it's a fixed value given at the start of the race instead of a multiplier, right?


I've received several requests for race "categories" (like weight classes in boxing). The spreadsheet gave a total handicap, but my idea would be to give total handicap divided by number of days in the race, each day. Possibly, an hourly handicap even. That way, every team would have a good idea of where they stood, relative to the other teams, every day, at least.

Yes, the example was for a fixed value. It's all pinned to the program I'm writing, having a lot of data from the previous few months, for the folders on the racing teams.

The hurdle to get over with the program, is centered on the EVGA folding team. They have their own race plan they would like to have voted in - giving themselves a sure win in the "heavyweight" category of the race. :(
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#25 User is offline   terry1966 

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Posted 09 December 2013 - 08:41 AM

again with the handicapping.

forget about it.

anything to do with any handicapping system just isn't going to work for the numerous reasons given at other forums.

just split your team c up and add them to team a and team b so ppd numbers are more or less equal a few thou difference isn't going to upset anyone, unless they are total anal.

then set a target and first to reach it wins, simple.

doesn't matter if either team a or team b put in extra effort trying to recruit "ringers" because both have equal opportunities to do it, so make it part of the comp and not a "cheating" issue.

hardest part so far from what i've been reading is actually getting the top 2 teams to take part in the cc ever again, and personally i really don't see why it needs a name change either.

two chimps racing for the banana first to get it wins.

just my honest humble opinion.

i'm sure there are enough bright people in the folding community who take part in the chimp challenge that some could actually design a graphic web page with the images of both chimps climbing a tree racing for the banana in real stats time too so everyone could just visit it and see who's in front.

:crazy:/>

just had another idea, if your so set on using handicapping for some type of race, why not create a completely new race.

this time make it individual teams, all handicapped based on previous days ppd production in the race, but this time call it a horse race and same as with cc make a graphical web site of horses in real time based on the stats so everyone can easily see how their horse/team is going.

or run both the horse race and the chimp climb/challenge at the same time with a prize for first place in each. normal jaded monkey for the cc and your vision for the horse race.
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#26 User is offline   pcmaster00 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 03:11 PM

View PostAdak, on 09 December 2013 - 12:09 AM, said:

The hurdle to get over with the program, is centered on the EVGA folding team.

The hurdle is not centered on the EVGA team. It is centered on the fact that you seem determined to dismiss anything we say or any plan we present and attack our team members with accusations that have been clearly refuted on your own forums. Only recently have you embraced the idea of multiple categories and this is after I withdrew from OCF over your attacks of Viper. Viper did not deserve the abuse you put him through. He folded for [H] for a short time to say thank you to [H] for all their work in generating information about 4P folding. Now that I have one of Viper's 4P boards, once I get it online, I will likely do the same. Does that make me a ringer?

Anyone who wants to read what Adak posted on OCF, its right here to see http://www.overclock...t=738306&page=3

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They have their own race plan they would like to have voted in - giving themselves a sure win in the "heavyweight" category of the race. :(

The EVGA team is not trying to create a plan that assures us a win. How is this true you say, simple. We want to bring [H] back to CC. If [H] comes back to CC, we would likely come in 2nd in this category. The straight point race is something that both EVGA and [H] want.
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#27 User is offline   terry1966 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:03 PM

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The straight point race is something that both EVGA and [H] want.

and is something easily achieved in my opinion, without any handicapping system or even worse "penalty" system in place.

it's for fun and rules just mean your taking the whole thing to seriously and think winning is everything where in reality it is not.

easy to make a 2 race format.

1st race, top 2 big teams on each side then add in all smaller teams to even out the total ppd as near as possible.
now you just multiply the combined ppd of each team by 10 to give them a target to race for.
first team to reach the target wins.

2nd race, take each teams av ppd for last month multiple it by 10 to give each team their own target to aim for, then first team to reach their target wins.

no rules plain and simple.
doesn't matter where you get extra folders/ppd production from, doesn't matter if some players jump ship to another team, all that matters is they took part and enjoyed themselves trying to beat whomever for whatever reasons.

be a lot easier for the smallest team to actual win too because all they'd need to do is add 1 massive folder to their team to hit their much lower target during the individual race. :hysterical:

and as for the big race with both the biggest teams on different sides, a single player jumping ship to the other side would have less of an impact, but even if they made a huge difference it doesn't matter because they had fun and folded for whatever side they wanted to win anyway.

again just my honest opinion.

must admit i do like my idea of having a graphical real time display for showing the races while in progress too.
chimps climbing a tree or rope for a banana. :power:

:crazy:

and to make everyone happy even adak, why not use any handicapping and penalty system he wants to come up with and make a 3rd race using it, then after the racing is all over just for fun (maybe more prizes) you can see if the same teams would have won the big race and the individual race.

every person and team can then take whatever result they want to be the "real" or most important one to them as being the correct result and yet everyone also had fun taking part.
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#28 User is offline   terry1966 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:43 PM

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I saw this happen in a SETI race I was in. Team Ireland was going to finish well back, but in the last days of the race, they brought in a new "recruit". The new recruit had the equivalent of 100 of the most powerful PC's you could buy at that time, crunching 24/7. He promptly lead Team Ireland to an easy win. Never been in a SETI race, since.


to be honest all that shows me is your a bad loser.

in the real world people and teams are going to be able to draw on resources not available to the average person, so when they use those resources it is not "unfair" or "cheating".

what it is, is just plain bad luck for you that your team wasn't the one to have such resources available plain and simple.

what's more seti gained a lot of extra data from the comp and those extra pc's that it wouldn't of had in the first place.

so if/when the same thing happens in a folding comp like cc i'd only see it as a bonus for fah and our attempts to find cures, not something to cry about because my team got stomped. :hysterical:

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#29 User is offline   dostov 

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Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:41 PM

The problem with a straight point race is that there's no point in it, we know in advance who's gonna win. Just take a look at the stats, there's no two teams that are close enough in PPD output to bring any kind of excitement in a race.

I think Terry's idea of giving each team its own target and the first team to reach its target wins, is the best idea I've read so far.

Keep thinking about it guys....
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#30 User is offline   equinox 

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Posted 11 February 2014 - 05:14 PM

where is this at Adak? seems to be an awful ruckus over it all among the major players.
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#31 User is offline   Adak 

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Posted 15 February 2014 - 03:11 AM

View Postequinox, on 11 February 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

where is this at Adak? seems to be an awful ruckus over it all among the major players.


I had a row over it when I went to the EVGA forum for race ideas. They wanted the same format that was rejected two years ago, because in every simulation done with real race data from the previous years, EVGA wins the race, in a landslide. EVGA believes they're God's gift to folding, and should win every CC, because after all, they ARE God's gift to folding. You can surely see that, right?

I'm not going for that, and you shouldn't either.

I'd recommend you race as a team, and support a race format with categories {large, medium, small, etc.}, and decide if you want handicap or target goals, or a no-handicap race within your category, with the other captains. OCN has the forum we're using for the CC race captains, and it requires pre-approval before you can register. Two contacts for this are: Axipher (last years OCN captain) and BMG (this years captain). Axipher is first choice on this.


What I'd like to have you do is vote in your choice for CC Captain, asap, and let's get you into the thick of the planning for the race.

I've had a lousy day today. My health is not great, and it decided to go South today. As a result, I won't be able to stay a CC captain for this years race. It's been a pleasure knowing, folding, and racing with you. All the best.
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#32 User is offline   pcmaster00 

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Posted 16 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

Adak loves to give a revisionist history of the Team EVGA's position. What our captain has proposed is a multi-goal, multi-award format.

The whole point of these threads in each teams forums is to come up with ideas. Yes we have team members that want no handicaps, but that is not the current position of the team as a whole.

If we can have a fair and mature conversation, Team EVGA is on board. Otherwise we don't need competitions like CC to motivate our team. We have our own competitions every few months. We would like to involved in CC as it has a lot of history for us, but we are not going to be pushed around by those who write the history books the way that suits them.
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#33 User is offline   caintry_boy 

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:35 AM

View Postpcmaster00, on 16 February 2014 - 05:52 PM, said:

Adak loves to give a revisionist history of the Team EVGA's position. What our captain has proposed is a multi-goal, multi-award format.

The whole point of these threads in each teams forums is to come up with ideas. Yes we have team members that want no handicaps, but that is not the current position of the team as a whole.

If we can have a fair and mature conversation, Team EVGA is on board. Otherwise we don't need competitions like CC to motivate our team. We have our own competitions every few months. We would like to involved in CC as it has a lot of history for us, but we are not going to be pushed around by those who write the history books the way that suits them.


Nor are the rest of us looking to be overrun by a team that can bless its members with the latest hardware because they are a manufacturer. :-)
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#34 User is offline   pcmaster00 

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 12:52 AM

View Postcaintry_boy, on 17 February 2014 - 12:35 AM, said:

Nor are the rest of us looking to be overrun by a team that can bless its members with the latest hardware because they are a manufacturer. :-)

If you really think that EVGA (the company) provides its team with the latest hardware to folding team members, then I hope to see you in the pictures at the next tin hat convention. By the way, big foot exists and so does the loch ness monster. Here's a link to prove it: http://bit.ly/xu9J6z

The EVGA team is made up of group of enthusiasts that use whatever hardware they can come up with. I myself have a single 4P motherboard that I paid $220 for. EVGA provided me not a dime of the funding for it. Also take poke your head up and take note that EVGA is an NVIDIA company and NVIDIA hardware is getting spanked dollar for dollar on Core 17 units. So how is EVGA helping us? If anything we are being hurt by purchasing EVGA hardware.
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#35 User is offline   equinox 

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Posted 17 February 2014 - 05:42 PM

easy Caintry. pcmaster00 no need to get uptight here neither. Trp's folding team consists of 4 people, me,Cvsi3,Dostov, and kwikky. that's it. hardly constitutes us entering a chimp challenge as our own team and as i see it i see no harm in us joining Ocf for it neither. if you want to get political about it we have all folded for Ocf in the past under our own names so actually we belong to 2 teams. i have folded for Ocf 10 of the last 12 months. some people on some forums may not have liked Adaks ideas but that's the internet. cant please them all but i thought he gave it his all and im sorry to see him bow out on this one ( if there is one ) ( hope your ok Adak ) it seems to me it is now in the hands of OCN and EVGA and time is running out so figure it out. with all the turmoil going on with f@h's big adv decision and other distributed computing forms stealing folders i think the big 4 forums need to put there heads together and come up with something spectacular. these views are expressedly my own. i fold for a reason (see my sig) i don't fold for the points, i fold for the wu's. doesn't matter what team to me just fold.



:wtf:/>
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#36 User is offline   caintry_boy 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:56 AM

View Postequinox, on 17 February 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

easy Caintry. pcmaster00 no need to get uptight here neither. Trp's folding team consists of 4 people, me,Cvsi3,Dostov, and kwikky. that's it. hardly constitutes us entering a chimp challenge as our own team and as i see it i see no harm in us joining Ocf for it neither. if you want to get political about it we have all folded for Ocf in the past under our own names so actually we belong to 2 teams. i have folded for Ocf 10 of the last 12 months. some people on some forums may not have liked Adaks ideas but that's the internet. cant please them all but i thought he gave it his all and im sorry to see him bow out on this one ( if there is one ) ( hope your ok Adak ) it seems to me it is now in the hands of OCN and EVGA and time is running out so figure it out. with all the turmoil going on with f@h's big adv decision and other distributed computing forms stealing folders i think the big 4 forums need to put there heads together and come up with something spectacular. these views are expressedly my own. i fold for a reason (see my sig) i don't fold for the points, i fold for the wu's. doesn't matter what team to me just fold.



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Just not looking to be pushed around by EVGA because they think they're a superior team...no bullying here! I will Fold for OCF during the challenge if it occurs. ;)
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#37 User is offline   terry1966 

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Posted 18 February 2014 - 07:01 PM

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Just not looking to be pushed around by EVGA because they think they're a superior team...


only according to adak. :hysterical:

i certainly don't get that impression from reading all the different forums posts on this subject. ;)

in fact quite the opposite.

personally to me it seems adak is the one with the major chip on his shoulder and i wouldn't be surprised if things went a lot smoother now he's stepped down and has decided to leave the organising to others.

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#38 User is offline   Bill1024 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:46 AM

Hey guys it has been a while I hope you all are doing well.
I have been folding for EVGA for a while and I hope they stay out of the CC.
The team is too big for this and no one can stand a chance to beat them. H could but they do not do the CC anymore.
Unless the 3rd 4th 5th place teams vs EVGA, EVGA just has too many folders.
I think there should be teams of 25 to 50 folders and big teams can put up several small teams. And every one would have to sign up to be counted.
No payback of points when folders fold for other teams, that to me is buying points. Fold for whoever you want, but do not expect payback.

I do ave some bad news about Adak you should know. He has passed away from heart trouble.
Here is a cut and past from his home forum. RIP Adak

Adak has passed away

All- I regret to inform you that Adak died on 16 Feb of a heart attack. This message comes via his nephew, Dean. If you wish to get in touch or have further questions please contact me at deandory@hotmail.com.
Please get the word out to those Adak may have known.

Best Wishes
Dean
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#39 User is offline   equinox 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 07:47 AM

Sad to hear about Adak , thanks for sharing
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#40 User is offline   caintry_boy 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:54 AM

View Postequinox, on 22 February 2014 - 07:47 AM, said:

Sad to hear about Adak , thanks for sharing


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